Fletcher puts up display with Ten Commandments in Rotunda

FRANKFORT —  On the day before Election Day in Kentucky, a King James version of the Ten Commandments is on display for public viewing in the state Capitol Rotunda, along with other historic documents Gov. Ernie Fletcher calls the “Foundations of American Law and Government” display.

The 10 framed documents on easels around the Rotunda were put on display by an order from Fletcher late this morning after a federal judge ruled that it is not covered by a previous injunction.

“The ‘Foundations’ display contains a variety of historically significant documents which are meant to educate our citizens about the foundations of our law and government,” Fletcher said in a statement, adding that he is “pleased” that U.S. District Judge Joseph M. Hood said the previous injunction does not apply to this display.

Hood, however, did not rule on the constitutionality of the display.

Fletcher’s press secretary, Jodi Whitaker, has said the governor’s motion in federal court was not related to Tuesday’s election.   Asked today how long the display will stay in the Rotunda, she said, “They’re there.”

She later added:  "We have no plans to take them down."

Fletcher, a Republican, is seeking re-election Tuesday in a race against Democratic challenger Steve Beshear. Several media polls show that Fletcher is trailing in the race.

UPDATE:  Beshear's campaign press secretary, Vicki Glass, said in a statement this afternoon that Beshear "will abide by the law and by the courts' decisions regarding the display of historical documents.

"It's obviously panic time for the Fletcher camp. He is pulling out all of the stops in an attempt to distract voters from his four years of failed leadership and from the real issues of bringing honesty and integrity back to the people of Kentucky.

"If Ernie Fletcher had been living by the Ten Commandments these last four years he wouldn't be in the mess he's in today."

Glass did not say if Beshear will keep this display in the Capitol Rotunda if he is elected governor.

Fletcher asked the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Kentucky last week to clarify a 2006 order pertaining to the display of a Ten Commandments monument on the Capitol Grounds.

The motion asked the court to stipulate that a previous order enjoining the display of the monument does not apply to the “Foundations” display, noting that the “Foundations” display has a predominately secular purpose.

The display was donated by the Rev. Herschel Walker of Laurel County. Besides a King James version of the Ten Commandments, the display includes a copy of the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, the Magna Carta, the lyrics of the Star Spangled Banner, the national motto, “In God We Trust,” the preamble to the Kentucky Constitution, the Bill of Rights and a picture of Lady Justice.

The documents in the “Foundations” display are all of the same size and each is accompanied by a statement describing its historical and legal significance. The display is identical to the displays posted in the Mercer and Rowan County Courthouses that were upheld as constitutional.

In March 2006, Fletcher signed a bill into law that directed the Historic Properties Advisory Commission to retrieve a Ten Commandments Monument donated by the Fraternal Order of Eagles and relocate it to the Capitol grounds.

But in June 2006, the federal court entered an order preventing the display of the monument until it reviewed the state’s plan for the display and determined that it complies legally.

Last week, Democratic Attorney General Greg Stumbo accused Fletcher of playing politics with the Ten Commandments.

Stumbo questioned the timing of Fletcher's announcement that he was seeking to clarify a 2006 federal court order.

"I offered to clear the way for posting the Ten Commandments a year and a half ago." Stumbo said in a statement. "Obviously, this issue was not important to the governor until he could play politics with it."

Fletcher said he had no confidence in the attorney general’s ability to competently represent the Commonwealth’s interests in this matter.

--Jack Brammer

Comments

The fat lady's clearing her throat!

Now Stumbo had something to do to get his name back into the public limelight.

[Beshear4Sure]

I wonder how long it will take the ACLU to file suit against Ernie.

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

"I just wanna say!"

A Blog post: Jim Anderson Stivers

If there was ANY SINGLE ISSUE, that has received more scrutiny, than than DISPLAYING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IN A PUBLIC BUILDING, I sure don't know what that it would be?

IMO, Ernest advisor's related to him; Our best effort now, is to try and turn a large group of Evangelical Fundamentalist to our camp.

First it was HOMOPHOBIA, then it is THE TEN COMMANDMENTS. Don't misunderstand me,I believe in the Commandments, like hundreds of thousands of "others."

However, isn't it apparent no change in the interpretation of the law will take place and to display the TEN COMMANDMENTS, on election day, is further proof, Ernest Fletcher is a SELF ORDAINED MINISTER.

By that, I am implying, if Fletcher had been more involved in RELIGIOUS TRAINING and having the IQ he apparently has, he would know -that dog is just not going to hunt.

It very well will attract those that feel strongly, the Commandments have a right to be displayed in a pubic Building.

Personally, I do not have a problem with it, but . . . . THE CONSTITUTION SAYS OTHERWISE.

And, while we are considering a religious issue, why is churches can be involved in politics and still maintain their TAX FREE STATUS?

Jim, I have to agree. Another funny thing about all this is that the same people who are trying to get the Ten Commandments into our public buildings also have consistently shown, through both their words and their actions, not to know what is actually in the Ten Commandments.

To wit, and just for a fun diversion, those who are reading this, try to sit down and, without looking, name all Ten Commandments. If you know someone who is a strong advocate for this display, ask him or her to name all ten. Most people name about 4 or 5 (the obvious ones) and then begin to stumble. Some people will try to say that this is all the more reason to put them on display – to remind those of us who have forgotten. But this misses the point, which is that, if Ernie was truly looking to enlighten the masses, he would have done so much earlier in his tenure as governor. Now that it is one day before the election, he has decided it is about time we all learn the Ten Commandments.

This is clearly not a move to enlighten, but merely a political move on Ernie's part. If people really want to know what the Ten Commandments are all about, they should put aside their hypocrisy and learn the Commandments themselves before telling others to read them. If Ernie had done so, he may not be 20 points down with one day to go.

Now that Ernie has posted the Commandments in the Capitol, maybe he'll can read and heed them for a change.

What a ridiculous issue this is. It won't make a dime's worth of difference -- spiritually, politically or otherwise.

It's another feeble ploy to strike down the separation of church and state by those who believe that God will reward them for their intolerance of other people's faiths.

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

I am not trying to start a religious debate just posing for those, like me, that could not remember most of them.

HISTORY:
The Ten Commandments appear in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and also in the Jewish scriptures.

Jewish people call them the 'Ten Sayings'. Most synagogues have these clearly written, in Hebrew, on a wall plaque. Usually just the first part of each Saying is written and often the first five and second five Sayings are shown in two lists.

This reminds Jews that Moses received the Ten Sayings on two stone tablets, on Mount Sinai.

Wall plaque of the Ten Commandments The Ten Commandments are the fundamental laws of the Jews which tell the Jewish people how they should live. Many countries base their laws on these rules too.

The Ten Commandments
You shall have no other Gods but me.

You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.

Respect your father and mother.

You must not kill.

You must not commit adultery.

You must not steal.

You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.

You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

I found it interesting that important parts of modern law, contain the important words shall and not MAY.

jas in frankforet

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

I am not trying to start a religious debate just posing for those, like me, that could not remember most of them.

HISTORY:
The Ten Commandments appear in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible and also in the Jewish scriptures.

Jewish people call them the 'Ten Sayings'. Most synagogues have these clearly written, in Hebrew, on a wall plaque. Usually just the first part of each Saying is written and often the first five and second five Sayings are shown in two lists.

This reminds Jews that Moses received the Ten Sayings on two stone tablets, on Mount Sinai.

Wall plaque of the Ten Commandments The Ten Commandments are the fundamental laws of the Jews which tell the Jewish people how they should live. Many countries base their laws on these rules too.

The Ten Commandments
You shall have no other Gods but me.

You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.

Respect your father and mother.

You must not kill.

You must not commit adultery.

You must not steal.

You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.

You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

I found it interesting that important parts of modern law, contain the important words shall and not MAY.

jas in frankforet

A large part of me is saddened that anyone, much less a Governor, would misuse the Ten Commandments in this fashion. I, like many, would very much like to see more of our Religious Heritage on display and even prevalent in our culture. I think we would be a much better people for it.

However, stunts like this do nothing to uplift our Judeo-Christian lineage and instead make it so easy to ridicule Christianity as a bumpkinlike exercise. I, for one, would fear for my very soul before I would use God's Word and Law for political or personal gain. I sincerely hope this has not happened.

I am glad the governor has displayed the documents as I believe they are the foundation of our country.

With that said I am still not voting for him.

This is just more proof of what was already clear:

Ernie Fletcher is a better Christian than you are! He's so close to God, he can tell you what He ate for lunch.

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

Nov 5, 4:24 PM

I entirely agree with you!

I would ask, why then so late, this demonstration of faith, when our Governor knows he intentionally broke one of the commandments. Thou Shall Not Lie! (Not that we all don't lie, at some time or another.

Who is pure?

I think modern society has re-defined the less than black lies as FIBS?

Happy Chandler, used to call ( A LIAR) that A STRANGER TO THE TRUTH.

Politics is such A CIRCUS! MANY TIMES.

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

4:51

I appreciate your strong faith. You know there are many of us that feel the same way you do, however, . . . the Constitution says otherwise.

At least that is what 12 people, in Washington had to say, so long, long ago.

It has been challenged so many times. I would agree that the Ten Commandments are the base of most all religions, in this country. And a reference base in our laws.

The sign above the Supreme Court Building gives mention of God. That is so contradictory.

If this public display is something more people are for, than against, perhaps we should have a constitutional amendment.

If we do that, then where does it stop?

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

4:51

I appreciate your strong faith. You know there are many of us that feel the same way you do, however, . . . the Constitution says otherwise.

At least that is what 12 people, in Washington had to say, so long, long ago.

It has been challenged so many times. I would agree that the Ten Commandments are the base of most all religions, in this country. And a reference base in our laws.

The sign above the Supreme Court Building gives mention of God. That is so contradictory.

If this public display is something more people are for, than against, perhaps we should have a constitutional amendment.

If we do that, then where does it stop?

[T]

The Ten Commandments were not instrumental in the founding of our country. Sorry, they just weren't. Some people seem to need this to be so. But that doesn't make it so.

[E.W.]

Couldn't the timing be from the fact that they were just recently donated by the Reverend? It seems the Governor had no control over that.

E.W.

I already have the ability to post the Ten Commandments. In my car, on my person, in my home, in my office, and better yet in my heart. Ernest Lee uses the Ten Commandments to rally a base that has left him...

If anyone says that the Constitution forbids displaying the Ten Commandments or other displays of our Christian heritage, they are just plain wrong. In fact, the Constitution does not even mention the phrase "separation of church and state"! Courts may rule against such displays for purely religious purposes, but many of these rulings are certainly subject to debate.

It is the most radical elements of our society, such as the ACLU, that misinterprets and misapplies the establishment clause to attempt to eliminate any reference to our deep and profound religious heritage in our public places.

Most Kentuckians and most Americans support public acknowledgements of our Christian heritage, including the Ten Commandments. And any in-depth study of the intent and practice of our Founding Fathers shows that, although they did not want government telling any individual how to worship, and rightfully so, they boldly exercised their own faith in public functions.

I see the Governor's actions as bold and courageous! He is on the right side of this issue, as opposed to Beshear and Stumbo and the ACLU, liberal-elite crowd.

[JIm Anderson Stivers]

5:33

I admire your ability to bring some clarity to this discussion, and you are right about all that you say, however . . . being right and being lawful . . . I wish that were always true, but it seems not, are not the same.

I do believe, it was the intent of our forefathers, to separate church and state, and that action was based on a real experience in the early days of our formation.

The timing of this action, and the convenience of it, makes it suspicious at the very least.

Did Governor Fletcher violate one of the Commandments?

"You must not misuse the name of the LORD your God. The LORD will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name."
Exodus 20:7 NLT

A person just above me wrote "And any in-depth study of the intent and practice of our Founding Fathers shows that, although they did not want government telling any individual how to worship, and rightfully so, they boldly exercised their own faith in public functions."

Talk about a person who really knows next to nothing about American history.

I bet that person doesn't know that very few founding fathers were Christian. If anything, they were "deists." They believed in a God that created the universe, then stepped back and did not interfere in human affairs.

In fact, "God" and "Christianity" aren't even mentioned once in the Constitution. Look it up.

Want a reference to Christianity? Check out Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. It opens by saying that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

If only people would educate themselves, they would see the Ten Commandments for what they are ... political wedges.

Here is the political wedge, Governor Fletcher left a cush congressional position which he would have had for life or until he ran for senate. Everyone loved him in that job. He runs for Governor putting himself out there, and he runs on fixing the mess in Frankfort. Well the mess was so bad, there is no description for how bad it was. There is no way to even have prepared for the mess, it was so bad. The dems knew and know this. He was set up by people he did not fire, it was difficult for him to fire people that were so close to their retirement, these people know who they are, and they should have stood up and thanked the Governor for not firing them, they were non merit and he could have fired them all. Anyway, he was set up and he had to go against Stumbo. This is the bottom line, the Governor is a good man and he wanted to fix things, that is what a doctor and engineer want to do, they fix things. He is not a politician and he does not have the killer instinct of a politician which means he did not do the phone call thing, he does not think like that. Going against Stumbo in politics is like throwing a highschool baseball player up against Kurt Schilling, the Governor never had a chance just as a kid would not have against schilling. So do what you want, say what you want, the governor was outgunned and outplayed by political professionals and we the sheeple fell for it. 4 more years.

The level of Christian bashing today on this blog and on Nickolas' blog makes me sick.

[Jim A. Stivers]

I feel this relative to the discussion:

Did our forefathers not warn us to steer clear of strict political party lines?
In the early days of the Republic -- say the first decade or so, which would be roughly 1787 to the turn of the century -- there were no political parties. The founding fathers saw great danger in them, in that they could lead to a "tyranny of the majority." That implies the imposition of complete control over anyone in a minority. Centralized power, they thought, would inevitably lead to situations in which the minority would be subjected to subservience to a majority. For this reason, the Constitution contains all sorts of measures ("checks and balances") designed to avoid this. The same idea motivates many of the procedural rules created by Congress, such as the filibuster that the Senate uses to stop certain bills from coming to a vote and becoming law.

Washington, and many of his colleagues, didn't think political parties were needed or wanted. This view turned out to be somewhat naive, as political allies will always form alliances to advance their interests, or to block the plans of their political adversaries. And indeed, a two-party system evolved -- the one that we still have today.

Many countries have multiple-party systems, and there is a constant shifting of alliances. Efforts to create a third party in America have been sporadic, and have never come very close to success.

7:12

Christian bashing?! I re-read every post here and didn't see any. So what you're saying is that because people don't want the 10 Commandments hung up means they are Christian bashing? Why not Jewish bashing? They have the Old Testament too, you know.

You act like you are some overwhelming under-represented minority. Sorry, but you're not.

If Fletcher likes hanging up lists, maybe he should hang up his administration's political "hit list" in the Rotunda that got them all in trouble in the first place.

What makes me sick is the level of Christian blaspheming going on from the soon to be gone Ernie Fletcher.

He's beyond contemptible. At least the pharisees truly believed they were doing the right thing. He's just using God's name because he thinks he can get away with it. He's going to reap the whirlwind for that, tomorrow and for eternity.

[Bubby Smitherman]

Ernie Fletcher is getting my vote simply becuase he seems to be more Bible oriented.

Somebody PLEASE tell Ernie it's not a contest to see how many of those Ten Commandments he can break by 6:00 p.m tomorrow night.

[Mark]

6:21 You are just plain wrong in your assertions, and I am WELL educated in American History. For a thorough analysis of this issue, go to:

http://www.lc.org/resources/separation.html

Also see:
http://www.creationists.org/churchandstate.html

The Governor's action was correct, and those of you that try to use Scripture to criticize him are transparently judgmental and hypocritical! I have never seen Ernie Fletcher "use religion". He believes it and practices it! We should be honored to retain his services for 4 more years.

We got that silly fear-mongering call from that strange group tonight. I feel sorry for the Fletcher people because they just don't know any better. They thrive on dividing Kentuckians.

They tried to divide on health insurance in 2004, they tried to divide on labor unions, they tried to divide on the same sex amendment, they try to divide on private matters from abortion to gender, they try to divide on religion and they've spent all 4 years dividing by class.

The great result is even with all that division they've actually unified a wide segment of voters from progressives and liberals to libertarians, traditional Republicans, Yellow Dogs, moderates, business conservatives, independents and even evangelicals.

Thank God for such unification.

7:30 Do you know how stupid you sound?! Do you even have a clue what you are saying? Who are you to judge anyone?!

[Darrin]

So said that Ernie finaly found those commandments. I wish he would have found them earlier I mean he would not have been in this mess if he would have followed them.

I am 7:01 and I mentioned nothing about church, but now that you mention it, how about thou shall not judge unless yee want to be judged.

[Wyatt Earl]

Earlier commentors have noted that the posting likely violates the commandment about lying, as well as misusing the name of God, but I'd also throw in the worship of graven images. Misguided Christians who worship monuments of the Ten Commandments are blashphemers, and violators of "Thou shalt not worship graven images."

I blame the non-right wing nut Christians for not denouncing these idiots who are trying to distort Christianity, distort American history, and impose their narrow little vision on the rest of us.

I just noticed Beshear4Sure's comment about the ACLU. Just curious, but is Beshear a member? Now that would get him votes!
NOT!

I bet he is!

8:57 What about Mc_ _ _nell?

Hey Wyatt Nut! No one is trying to distort anything by merely displaying the foundation for our laws: the Ten Commandments. Let's all try to keep the Ten Commandments ourselves and stop wreckless judgmental accusations. Your comments make no sense!

Pardon me but I think Ern gives church folks a bad name.

[Leviticus]

Hey Mark at 8:20 ...

You're not at all convincing with your citations to Creationist websites.

Cite from some group that doesn't have an agenda.

Here's some real, unbiased history for you:

Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State."

Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States."

There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.

Your Creation-Science website probably don't mention those.

With tomorrow being election day, maybe Ernie will hang us his copy of the list of his legal defense fund donors. Sure couldn't break it loose from him before the election. Capitol Rotunda would be a good place to hang it right along with the other historical documents.

[Leviticus]

Sorry, Mark, your Creationist web pages DO mention Jefferson's letter (but does not refute it at all, only says it's not an official government document). Are these the sites where you learn history? Unbelievable.

you guys sure do have high expectations for Beshear and gang, I hope it all plays out for you, I do not think it will.

[Bonzo2007]

It should be very obvious to thinking people that all Ern is doing is pandering the the religious right to try and drum up some extra votes. I predict he will still lose tomorrow by at leasst 15%

[jval]

Posting the Ten Commandments in a display with other documents, while in some cases Constitutional, is simply a back-door way to inject religion into government. It's getting ridiculous, since we now have a list of "necessary elements", much like the plastic Santa, Christmas tree, presents, and other trappings that religionists use (Constitutionally, according to the Supremes) to get their baby in a cradle put into the public square. Why don't they put these things in front of their houses and churches, where there can be no complaint about them? (I'll go ahead and answer the obvious) Because they are trying to intertwine government and Christianity, which is absolutely the opposite of what Madison, Jefferson, and most of the other Founders intended.

Oh, and yes, I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. :) And proud of it!

what if the dems lose? It will be over.

[Mark]

Are you closed-minded, Leviticus? The sites I cited provide an accurate, thorough assessment and analysis of the origins of some of the misconceptions, as well as the original intent in Jefferson's letter that mentions the phrase "separation of church and state." As I stated earlier, the Constitution does not mention this phrase. That is a fact!

As for part of the analysis, read the following:

"There is nothing wrong with the way Jefferson used the "wall of separation between church and state" metaphor. The problem has arisen when the Supreme Court in 1947 erroneously picked up the metaphor and attempted to construct a constitutional principal. While the metaphor understood in its proper context is useful, we might do well to heed the words of the United States Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist:

The "wall of separation between church and State" is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned. (22)

Jefferson used the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" as a means of expressing his republican view that the federal or general government should not interfere with religious matters among the several states. In its proper context, the phrase represents a clear expression of state autonomy.

Accordingly, Jefferson saw no contradiction in authoring a religious proclamation to be used by state officials and refusing to issue similar religious proclamations as president of the United States. His wall had less to do with the separation of church and all civil government than with the separation of federal and state governments. (23)

The "wall of separation between church and state" phrase as understood by Jefferson was never meant to exclude people of faith from influencing and shaping government. Jefferson would be shocked to learn that his letter has been used as a weapon against religion. He would never countenance such shabby and distorted use of history."

Amen!

[Mark]

P. S. Shame on the ACLU and its radical, anti-Christian agenda, for purposely distorting the intent of our Constitution!

[Leviticus]

Mark, again ... you have ZERO credibility citing a CREATIONIST WEBSITE!!!! You can quote a million websites that are funded by Liberty University or The 700 Club and it won't make you anymore convincing.

And I find it appalling the way you cite Thomas Jefferson as a "bad metaphor."

It's not an issue of keeping religious people out of government (as you claim), it's keeping religious people from using the government to IMPOSE THEIR RELIGION ON OTHERS!!!! (i.e., 10 Commandments in Courthouses)

Fine, get all your talking points from websites that also argue that the Earth is 6000 years old.

And one more thing, and this puts your silly state/federal interpretation of "Jefferson's bad metaphor" to rest. Contrary to what your Intelligent Design websites tell you, it WAS about religion/government separation.

Jefferson stated "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government", and, "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."

Will you please go away now?

[Leviticus]

Mark, one more thing. The website you cite that talks about church/state separation, also has a page you can link to entitled:

"Evidence that Humans and Dinosaurs lived together, at the same time"

Before you type one more word, please answer me this. Do you believe humans and dinosaurs lived together at the same time?

It will tell me a whole lot about how you consider historical evidence. Because to be honest, you've been ignoring a whole lot of it.

So answer that first, then we'll continue talking.